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That's some weird gatekeeping. The hardware they do support is supported well.

Perhaps they mean ISAs

IIRC, Apple uses 'platform' to refer to an SoC integration. For example, M1, M2 and etc. are separate platforms. M5 in Vision Pro is a separate platform than M5 in MacBook Pro. I believe Apple's XNU does somewhat still support non-Apple Silicon as well though.

Yeah they're was that whole x86 thing thru did for quite a while.

Twice, on the basis that NEXT used the same kernel and that ran on 68k and Intel when Apple bought them and later ported it for Power PC. When Steve Jobs went back to Apple, for a long time he ran NEXT on a Thinkpad.

NeXTSTEP also ran on SPARC iirc

OpenSTEP actually.

OpenSTEP had SPARC support, yes, but NeXTSTEPs last release had support for m68k, x86, and SPARC. 3.3 had support for PA-RISC

Well x86 at one point, arm both the 32 and 64 bit versions. I think they had RISCV support in their source tree at one point but not really at a commercial level. It does cover a lot different levels of hardware though

Does Apple use macOS in servers in its datacentres? Or are they all Linux?

Surely at a minimum they need macOS for CI.

Apple does have one advantage here-they can legally grant themselves permission to run macOS internally on non-Apple hardware, and I don’t believe doing so legally obliges them to extend the same allowance to their customers.

But that might give them a reason to keep x86_64 alive for internal use, since that platform (still) gives you more options for server-class hardware than ARM does


They do run Apple Silicon in data centers, so perhaps another custom version of Darwin + their system frameworks. It is hard to tell without some leaks :)

For Private Cloud Compute: “a new operating system: a hardened subset of the foundations of iOS and macOS tailored to support Large Language Model (LLM) inference workloads while presenting an extremely narrow attack surface.” https://security.apple.com/blog/private-cloud-compute/

I wonder if there is any chance we might see another Xserve?

If they’ve got Apple Silicon servers in their own data centres…


They use Ubuntu on x86-64 servers, at least for iCloud. Backends for iCloud, Photos and Backups etc. are written in Java.

Any sources or more information on that?


For the Java bit at least, this aligns with job descriptions I’ve seen and recruiter outreach I’ve received (long time ago though, maybe 5 years).

NeXT added a Java variant to WebObjects and it was for several years the main server side infrastructure, after being acquired by Apple.

Nowadays you can usually still find Java and JVM languages like Clojure (Apple Maps), on Apple's job ads.

How much of it is still Java based, no idea.

I imagine XCode Cloud has nothing to with it for example.


Unfortunately I am the source in this case. It is from having worked on them personally. :)

PPC32/64 of course, and for a long time Darwin still contained remnants of its predecessor's support for SPARC, PA-RISC, and m68k.

Which Apple products run arm32 XNU? Their first Apple Silicon CPUs were already arm64.

Well there were still the historical arm32 chips in their iOS devices, but until recently the watches were a cursed arm64_32 (or something like that) which is arm64 with 32 bit pointers iirc.

I should have just soureced this, They had PowerPC not RISCV in there source tree that was the X factor one. The Arm32 bit variant is closed sourced (leaked before) but was supported until IOS 11. XNU is really old almost 30 years! And before XNU there was the MACH kernel and the larger BSD tree it was built on which is an argument that it probably had a initial MIPs release too but I couldn't source the truth on that.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XNU


Is mc68k or PPC still in there anywhere?

I'm sure there's vestiges of them somewhere, but the underlying support (the architecture specific parts of the mach portion of the kernel) is gone for those archs.

I wouldn't be surprised if they keep a minimal Power base maintained behind closed doors. It's how they managed to jump ship to intel so quickly, they never stopped maintaining NeXTSTEPs x86 port

I seriously doubt it.

Apple's ARM implementation is in a really good place right now. It would take something extremely compelling to get them to consider any other architecture for an application processor, especially considering that it'd mean giving up some degree of control.

Power is probably not where Apple would choose to go unless something really unusual happened. It's essentially just IBM's pet architecture at this point.


When I mean minimal arm base, I basically mean making sure XNU at least compiles on PPC64. I don't doubt they'd likely never have a use for it, but they maintained intel support behind closed doors when macos forked from NeXTstep and nobody thought they'd need that

I would honestly be shocked if they were.

They've been making quite a few changes to the virtual memory code over the past decade, and keeping those vestigial arch's around is a pretty big maintenance burden. It'd probably be less work to just add the arch as if it were new when it's needed at this point since the kernel itself is pretty portable.


oh awesome! I had assumed they were just targeting M1/M2 for the time being


> The only way to accomplish this at scale is to build something that is legit better and let the market decide. Anything else is just principled wishful thinking.

No they need to tariff/ban things that are non-EU


Tariffs are good now


How effective would this setup be if the parent company in the US is ordered to order the EU subsidiary to do something not in the interests of the EU?


There was a Microsoft email server legal case for Ireland that didn't go well

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._United_Stat...


Yeh I was curious how it was different - I thought MS did a similar thing of getting T-mobile to operate it's EU cloud.


If it breaks the law in the EU, then the European employees staffing the data center refuse, because they don't want to go to jail or pay fines.

That's the entire point of setting it up like this.

Think of it like fast-food franchises. They have to sell the same food and use the same branding and charge the same prices. But if McDonald's tells you to start selling cocaine on the side, you tell them nope, that's not in the contract and I don't feel like going to prison.


What if the software is developed and potentially backdoored in the US and deployed by the EU team in the sovereign region? Or did they rewrite the entire AWS stack?


If the EU employees can look around the code, it would then get quite interesting if they were to point out a backdoor. which they would of course raise with an EU based CERT. In a way that protects US customers as well having a set that can't be stopped from doing that.


Assuming EU employees get to see the sources, let alone own their building process.


True, and there's probably a lot of it; still I think they already have some EU devs, but I guess only on some things.


I don't think there are any protections against that. On the other hand, you'd have to ask yourself how realistic it is that the US is forcing Amazon to secretly backdoor its own software for US spying abroad? I can't give an answer on that one, you'll have to form your own opinion.

I imagine that if a back door were ever discovered, AWS's reputation would tank so hard that a lot of companies would probably never do business with it again.


> how realistic it is that the US is forcing Amazon to secretly backdoor its own software for US spying abroad?

probably 100%?


Over 100%, in that I'm sure multiple independent groups are working on it all the time. The spooks regularly place actual agents in foreign governments (the Germans found a big nest of them and nothing much happened in the end). There's no way it would be challenging for them to find an employee willing to cash a giant cheque in exchange for quietly granting their own government access.


Maybe you missed when Microsoft blocked the email account of the chief prosecutor of the international court of justice: https://www.heise.de/en/news/Criminal-Court-Microsoft-s-emai...

Of course these services are backdoored.


How is that a “backdoor”? It was just an (outrageous) administrative decision.


I'm curious about the iOS situation


I doubt iOS has a large market share in Iran.

Also, for something like this you don't want a platform that requires you to essentially use the App Store and nothing else.


iOS is around 10%, Android around 90%. (https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/iran/%20)


   Briar is available on Google Play for devices running Android.
What situation do you mean?


The one you just summarized perfectly.


10% of devices or less.


Unfortunately, due to safety reasons Apple cannot allow you to leave the walled garden, it is only in your own best interest. All communication services on our iOS devices require at least one US-based NSA-integrated middleman. /s


Don’t forget the horror stories of people relying on iCloud to have all their personal life there only to get locked out for silly reasons.


Google is no better here, I would say they are even worse since they are scanning your files actively. Remember story of Father who was asked by doctor to send his baby son private parts photos due to covid and Google not only locked him out but also notified Police. Even after getting statement from Law Enforcement there was no crime they didn't restore his access. Guy lost 20 years of live history due to algorithm.


I feel the narrative on these kind of issues should be updated. We've been using their framing of "algorithms" but it is taking away all responsibility from the US tech workers who are actually designing and running Google.

The guy lost 20 years of life history due to US tech workers at Google wrongfully blocking his account and then ignoring his pleads for reactivation.

When US tech workers can show up to take cash and bonus payments from Google, they can also show up to take responsibility for Google's impact.


Seriously though, given all the NSA has done: Could the NSA launch a "beach head" inside Apple?


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