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>Starting in 2024, if you have Chromebooks that were released from 2021 onwards, you’ll automatically get 10 years of updates.

Nice of them to cover a few from the last few years as well. From a school standpoint, this is a big win. I doubt many chromebooks in active use by students would even last 10 years.



I don't think it's even covering just the last few years but goes back further than that:

> For Chromebooks released before 2021 and already in use, users and IT admins will have the option to extend automatic updates to 10 years from the platform’s release (after they receive their last automatic update).

I don't entirely understand why the 2021 cutoff for it being opt-in vs. opt-out is there. Maybe it's about the "already in use" bit somehow, and making sure that pre-2021 models don't continue being manufactured and sold as as new.


My guess is that they’ve received commitments since 2021 on parts and drivers for 10 years, and don’t have those commitments prior to that date, so they’re only offering opt-in OS updates that will be under subtly different terms for liability indemnity purposes.


Might also be a case of minimal RAM/SSD requirement and OS build using reasonable new compiler.

HW might also be more standarized today, e.g. using USB internally for webcam and keyboard.


The footnote says

> For devices prior to 2021 that will receive extended updates, some features and services may not be supported.

So.. they might need to rip out some problematic drivers, maybe? Like, imagine the bluetooth chip vendor not being cooperative, you get to choose to continue updates but losing bluetooth as a feature.

The footnote continues

> See our Help Center for details.

So kudos to first one dig out the exact page they're referring to (there's no link).



Except that also just ends with

> ** For devices prior to 2021 that will receive extended updates, some features and services might not be supported.

which doesn't really say anything...


> imagine the bluetooth chip vendor not being cooperative

no, then you tell them that if they dont play ball, they will NEVER sell a single chip to anything google ever again, and then you hire some people to reverse engineer the shit, and make it work anyway. And then you publish all about how company X is being stupid and trying to work against efforts to save the environment, how they are trying very hard to make money on peoples hardware being obsoleted before time etc.

But then we realize that google themselves have bummed out to large extents with what they have permitted on android and chromebooks, so anything like this would not happen


Tell me you have never worked with hardware suppliers without telling me you have never worked with hardware suppliers.

Imagine that the part you want (given the constraints, etc.) has maybe two suppliers. You pick one of them and use them in your product. Then they drop support and you pull this stunt. What do you think will happen? People will storm the company with pitchforks and they'll quietly release their full source code and promise to never do that ever again?

No, what's actually going to happen is you're going to write a blog post, Hacker News is going to be like "yeah I worked with that supplier once, never again" and the average consumer is going to be like "who is this company?" and it will be forgotten by next week. Your reverse engineered drivers, which you of course spent millions of dollars on hiring top-tier engineers to make, will ship and the company will immediately sue you for infringement. Maybe if you did a very careful job you might be able to claim some sort of interoperatability defense and win the case years from now. Before then the court will grant an injunction preventing the sale of your device.

There's no need to tell the supplier that you will never work with them again. You've ruined the relationship already. And the other supplier? They probably won't work with you either, because they're doing the same thing and would like to keep doing it, thank you very much. Oh, you think you're Google so people will care about your business? They're selling 10x the volume to Samsung for their smart fridges. And now you get to I guess create an entire division to create a Bluetooth chip from scratch. By the way leadership wants to ship Pixel 9 on time so can you please have it ready by December? And it needs to support all the latest features because it would truly suck if Apple shipped Bluetooth 6.5 support before we did.


perhaps if it was something mega complex, but we are talking a bluetooth chip, hardly an unwinnable scenario for google.

are you saying for real that google isnt big enough to get its way with these things? they could buy these puny suppliers, piss on every desk in their offices, and close them down, just for fun if they so wanted.

and how come this "sued into oblivion" doesnt happen when the community writes drivers for linux in the cases where vendors do not play ball? are you saying theres absolutely no way google could pay money to make this happen?

get real


Bluetooth chips are complex. That’s why the companies that make them are worth billions of dollars and have thousands of employees. Making a phone is also very complex but it would be exponentially so if every component had to be made in-house and not purchased from another supplier that is an expert in that area.

The way companies express their pique is that they try to aggressively poach engineers from the company to make their own in-house team, in a process that frequently takes years. All the time they continue buying chips because until that is complete they don’t actually have any Bluetooth chips to ship in their products. Even then the process frequently doesn’t work because it turns out that throwing a billion dollars at something doesn’t necessarily mean you can make what the other company has spent 25 years on. If you want examples, just look at Apple: they aggressively pull things they think are strategic into their own hardware team, and they still talk to a bunch of terrible suppliers because they aren’t willing to shell out the money to do it themselves and they don’t consider it worth going to war over. And the things that they do actually try to make (modems, for example) frequently don’t work out.

Nobody is going to sue a guy in his basement working on Linux drivers. You can scare him with lawyers but fundamentally there’s not much that you can extract from them. But going after Google for IP infringement in a phone that sold ten million units is actually very much worth it.

I think you feel that Google has infinite money to just use on tantrums and despite them having a lot of money their is probably no entity on earth that can engage in these kinds of things regularly and get away with it. Companies are not like people. Even the smallest ones have legal teams that can make engaging with them very painful. And in hardware people have a ton of options to sell to, so you’re just a tiny piece of anyone’s pie.


bluetooth chips are more complex than producing spoons, sure.

Google could EASILY do this, they just do not care. Nobody would come after them if they reverse engineered drivers for bluetooth chips.

but it would never come to that, they could just announce that bluetooth drivers now have to be open source to quality for play store shit, and it would be done. they have 1 million ways to get what they care about, they just dont


What is the source of your confidence?


my source is that google/alphabet is in the top 5 biggest companies in the world, I consider it quite within the realm of google to decide to solve having open source drivers for some bluetooth crap. regular small guys can reverse engineer more complex stuff in their basement, google can fund that, or do it themselves, or outright buy the bluetooth companies should they want to.

my spidey-sense is telling me that a giant megacompany that dwarfs bluetooth companies could probably manage to solve this, and easily at that


Your spidey-sense is wrong, for the reasons I specified. It is not economical to do this. The effective way to solve open source Bluetooth drivers is with a carrot, not a stick, regardless of how satisfying it would be to try to beat bad companies with it.


I do not believe that it is beyond google to produce bluetooth drivers, or even bluetooth hardware.

It can no doubt solve it cheaper, but it can for sure solve it


Unfortunately, the supply chain often goes 3 and 4 levels deep. And by the time you get to companies that far in the supply chain, (a) no one has ever heard of that company, so the trying to threaten them with reputational damage doesn't really work (it will be some random set of chinese characters for a company in Shenzhen, for example), and (b) it will turn out that the team that wrote the device driver for that particular subcomponent in the SOC was disbanded as soon as the part was released, and 4 years later, half are working for a different company, and half were died during the COVID pandemic.

Sure, if you could set the Wayback machine back in time, and require that device driver be upstreamed, with enough programming information so it's possible to maintain the device driver, maybe it would be possible to upgrade to a newer kernel that doesn't have eleven hundred zero-day vulnerabilities. But meanwhile, back in the real world, very often there's not a whole lot you can do. So this is why it's kind of sad when people insist on buying Nvidia video chips that have proprietary blobs because performance, or power consumption, or whatever, instead of the more boring alternative that doesn't have the same eye-bleeding performance, but which has an open source device driver. Our buying choices, and the product reviewers that only consider performance, or battery life, etc., drives the supply chain, and the products that we get. And this is why we can't have nice things.


Good luck with that, in case the company goes out of business?


In that case, it's easy for Google to never buy from them again.


There was an article from the WSJ that wrecks Google for e-waste due to not supporting Chromebooks past 5 years. A lot of chromebooks were purchased from 2020 due to the pandemic. It's not the date of purchase that determines obsolescence, so many were coming up to be thrown away.

It would be better if Google defaults to supporting 2020, 2019 (Many purchased in 2020 were manufactured in 2019).


If you where cheaping out an bought Windows 10 devices in 2020, you'd also only get 5 years of support.


I’m wondering if that will be a paid option. That’s how the last stage of support for commercial OSes often works.


I have an original Pixelbook (late 2017 release date) and the auto update support page [1] has been updated from June 2024 to June 2027 (with an asterisk saying it is user opt in but that's all I can see). So at first glance it doesn't seem to be paid.

My Pixelbook doesn't get much use anymore vs my M1 MacBook but it's nice to know it will still be supported. It can be a handy thin client and I don't have to worry as much about it getting stolen/abusing at this point in its life.

[1] https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366?visit_id=...


I worked an inner city public school system's well funded IT department about a decade ago. Chromebooks had just been distributed to all students with grant money. After the first year, about 1/5 laptops needed major repair. None of them would make it to 5 years.


I've seen some of the chromebooks at my daughter's school and they are beyond abused by the kids. Missing keys, screens cracked, you name it. My daughter's is in pristine condition, though!


Pretty soon we'll see kids making their own covers and protective cases for Chromebooks like we did back in the day with our textbooks


I've been dating a 6th grade teacher in a SV adjacent town, and hearing how she attempts to teach with these things is hard to imagine for me even though I was a computer nerds as a kid.

They have like 5 different saas programs/platforms they use. They also have video platforms. Reading, library checkout, digital media, quizzes, tests, who knows.

If I was a kid without add, I would for sure have it having to use that stuff at 11 years old.

I'm not sure who thought doing away with pen and paper and a simple book in front of you was a good idea.

I assume it was an IT/software salesperson with ability to give kickbacks.


>After the first year, about 1/5 laptops needed major repair. None of them would make it to 5 years

Do you believe a Mac or Windows laptop would have been more reliable given the abuse they were subjected to?


I think a simple fix would be a psychological, not technical one. Simply, it's "their" laptop. They don't return it at the end of the year and if they keep it in good form, then they have one. If they don't; they don't.


The reality is some people take care of their stuff others dont.

I see adults with absolute garbage looking iPhones. Some people just do not care. Others do. There is some amount of 'psychological' you can do to fix some of it. But at the end of the day you will have a mix of 'sorta broke', 'broken', 'did you ever take it out of the box'.

Then on top of that. There is a level of junk products. I have a high end laptop I absolutely baby. That thing is a piece of rubish and in a year or so I am going to gladly get rid of it. It has major defects ~2 years in. The previous 3 laptops I had were in very good condition for 5+ years each until the plastic literally started detreating. The same ODM's making that laptop are also making chromebooks. My only option to fix this is by buying used parts of sites like ebay. Or be without my primary computer for 4-8 weeks. Chromebooks margins have to be decently thin or they would not sell them that cheap. Which probably means the things are kind of junk too.


That approach doesn't really work with children.

Removing student access to technology is overly punitive and does not support the intended learning and development outcomes of attending school.

To ostracize a child because they damaged their laptop is psychological abuse.

We can just help them take better care of it and reinforce the reasons why and train them to do so! :-)


And when they don't, what? The workhouse?


They'll get a crappier bulky version.


So like the office then? Your 12" light laptop that you use for travel breaks? No worries, here is a 17" 8 year old machine that will break your back carrying around everywhere, and cant be used on a airplane.


My work has solved this problem by making everyone have the crappy huge laptop. 7000+ employees, everyone gets to choose from a menu of one.


Mildly. Some classes had MacBook airs, which were a bit more durable to the sorts of abuse that would happen, but they costed 3x as much, and didn’t take 3x the punishment. I can’t imagine a solution beyond ‘give them the cheapest thing possible’ which happens to still be chromebooks.


Was it an issue with Chromebooks specifically, or just a general consequence of heavily-used shared laptops?


Chromebooks are made out of plastic, children are not very careful, and people don't value free things they're given.


> Chromebooks are made out of plastic

Wait to see what happens to devices made of glass !

Jest aside, any device lasting even two or three years in a school environment is kinda of a big deal given the daily abuse it will get.


Plastic isn't necessarily a bad thing, metal tends to dent and deform while plastic has some elasticity. It depends on what plastic they use.


E.g. thinkpads usually use a composite plastic (carbon/glass fiber), which makes them lightweight, durable, and thermally insulated from your body. Chromebooks definitely use the cheap stuff though.


I have a ThinkPad Chromebook and it is very solid and durable, even though it was a bargain.


We had macbook airs at school and they were similarly destroyed because people would just carelessly chuck them around.


Pedagogically, it would seem the answer to that would be to have the classroom be a computer lab on the first day of school, and then make the kids work (running laps, taking quizzes on having done the reading) before they earn the laptop to take home.


But then you can't export the work of designing and implementing homework into some faceless corporation who's only real goal is to appeal to administrators, not teachers or kids, certainly not to match course material or learn.

I've seen an explosion of online homework recently and it's all confusing and either way to easy or waaayyyy too hard with very little of the partial credit and recourse that an actual person grading a paper assignment has.


Which comes from the same place that Microsoft Teams craptacularity comes from. The people buying the product aren't the ones using it. Computerized homework could auto adjust to be not too hard and not too easy, by changing the difficulty of the next problem, based on how the student did with the previous problem. But implementing that is beyond our capabilities, apparently.


Teachers were building lesson plans around everything being on the laptop, and that all students would have one available. A student couldn’t just be restricted to not taking laptops home, because that means that student either can’t do their homework, or has to do their homework afterschool, which would require parent involvement.

The sorts of kids with laptop issues were not the children with high parent involvement.


Nah, that won't work either, kids forget about that very fast. You don't sound like you've got kids yourself either.


Kids aren't all or nothing. They remember, and they also forget.

The only thing that really works are repeated reminders and attentive consequences, over a sustained period of time.

Also, adults don't typically have coworkers grab their laptop and smash it because they're disliked.


Having participated in a one-laptop-per-student pilot program ages ago, with Fujitsu tablet convertibles that were very much plastic painted to look like brushed metal, I had problems keeping my laptop intact too - since I was constantly running between classes, sandwiching my laptop between textbooks, the case plastics didn’t last the year. But laptops were much, much heavier then.


They’re much more robust today


I think an individual device not making it 5 year would be fine.

A big issue with chromebooks in particular: there's many discreet models of different sizes and builds, that all require different parts, and don't get renewed every year.

One school ordering 400 12" HP chromebooks for instance will have no guarantee to be able to order another batch 2 years later, even of an equivalent machine that could be a straight replacement.

Perhaps Dell has a more stable offering given they probably understand these problematics better ?


> After the first year, about 1/5 laptops needed major repair. None of them would make it to 5 years.

The second sentenxe doesn't follow the first - it's a flavor of Zeno's paradox, after 5 years, you'll be left with 4/5 x 4/5 x 4/5 x 4/5 x 4/5 of the original batch.


> The second sentenxe doesn't follow the first - it's a flavor of Zeno's paradox, after 5 years, you'll be left with 4/5 x 4/5 x 4/5 x 4/5 x 4/5 of the original batch.

You made a mistake: it's not that 1/5 of the computers spontaneously break every year. It's that 1/5 of the students treat their computers roughly.

Assuming that laptops get collected over the summer and re-distributed each year, you should actually expect that 100% of each tranche of laptops would need to be replaced every 5 years.


I don't understand how that math could work. Assuming random assignment, the probability that a given computer is given to a one of those students is identical from year to year.


> I don't understand how that math could work. Assuming random assignment, the probability that a given computer is given to a one of those students is identical from year to year.

That's fair. I guess, it's more accurate to say that you'd expect a number of laptops equal to the size of the initial tranche to be destroyed after the first 5 years.

Although if I was running IT, it'd definitely keep track of the "destructive" students and issue them the oldest equipment, in which case, we'd be back to something closer to my original statement.


You're assuming that 4/5 of the laptops remained in pristine condition. I doubt that very much. You need to take account for the ordinary wear and tear compounded together with the impact of abusive 1/5 of users that do an excessive amount of damage (requiring a total overhaul.)

And anyway, if 1/5 of laptops needed major repairs and some of them got it, those go back into circulation. Are they still original laptops? (Ask my grandfather's axe...)


Failure doesn't work that way.

It's not the case that there's a constant 1/5 probability of failure each year. Many failure modes are based on cumulative stress/degradation; so the probability of failure can go up over time.

Some failure modes go down over time; maybe there's some manufacturing defect, and those that have the defect fail early, while those that survive past the first year will have lower chances of failure early on.

But in this kind of environment, the cumulative stresses are much more likely than the early failures.


This was the case. There were no pristine laptops. Some kids are gentle with them, but things happen outside their control, kids play destructive pranks, or are just clumsy. Theoretically possible to make it to 5 years? Sure. Practically? No.


This assumes that 1/5 of them break every year which is probably not the case, older laptops will break more frequently.


On the other hand, considering we are talking about kids breaking laptops, this failures are much more random, a brand new laptop is not that much more likely to survive a fall than an old one.


If the older laptop has already "survived" a fall, yes, it is abosolutely more likely to break from the same fall than the new laptop.


All data you have from the author's sentence is the first year, none about the following ones, then the conclusion that none last the full five years. But you assumed it's 1/5th per year, every year.

Anyway, it doesn't matter much either way, even if there's a few that survive, they will be having wear and tear to the point you wouldn't want another student to have them (or maybe as a replacement for a broken one); you wouldn't want some year 1 students to get a new ones while others get the year 4/5 leftovers, they'll resent it for sure.

Second, they'll be paid off after a few years.


Colloquial comment doesn't need to meet mathematical rigor. He's just saying that these laptops do not last.


For things which are effectively integers there is no paradox when your division results in a number less than one you have nothing or perhaps more accurately a probability of having 1 but any given instance in actuality has either 1 or zero. Also equipment failure isn't a linear thing its a curve as things reach expected lifespan. For instance a battery which is nontrivial to replace has an expected number of charge cycles until your battery is so shot you can't really use it off a charger any longer. An increasing number of mechanical hard drives fail, charger sockets start failing. Heating and cooling cycles cause progressive degradation of electronics.

You absolutely could design it to last 20 years with batteries that are easy to pop out and pop in as easy as changing a double aa but your customers won't pay a premium over a more disposable machine and indeed if your customer has a good experience over the 3-5 they actually use it for you make MORE if your hardware is designed to need replacement.


  > I doubt many chromebooks in active use by students would even last 10 years.
Maybe not, but we've been surplussing tens of thousands of otherwise-usable Chromebooks regardless, because they could not be updated to current.


I am also seeing all the easy educational access around Chromebook ecosystem as a long play to secure Google Suite as a de facto desktop publishing app for the next generation.

Kind of like Adobe did with easy piracy of Photoshop during the early versions.


As did Microsoft. They cared about businesses pirating office, teenagers and for home use, not so much.

Ubiquity is it’s own reward.


Unlikely to last that long, but helpful that they'll still be supported so they can be repaired, updated, etc. -- and so they can slowly upgrade throughout a school system, rather than having to do a wholesale update every few years.


> Unlikely to last that long,

That's what I keep coming back to. I've known two classes of Chromebook, shelved and about to be.

Most of my customers tried them. It seemed reasonable their office could use them for light web app use. Every one was in the closet within 6 months.

They're commonly slow. Printer support is a crapshoot, MFP doubly so. Corporate plugin support is a crapshoot. Whatever unforeseen new computing experience arrives, they probably can't do it.

I was at my mechanic's shop last month. He stopped mid sentence to say 'I hate this thing; I'm about to throw it thru a wall' while he's trying to lookup parts online. It's an Acer Chromebook and will likely be gone by my next visit.


I agree, but at the same time, this is an extension from 8 to 10 years. While this will surely buy time for many schools to upgrade, we can all be prepared for a re-hash of this kerfuffle in 2 years.


What laptops are we seriously expecting to last more than 10 years? I wouldn't expect that from a MacBook Pro or a Thinkpad, let alone a $300 Chromebook.


My father had been using a laptop he got in 2011 (I5-2410m) until a few months ago when I bought him a mini PC with an Intel N95, he didn't even want to switch because for the most part everything worked pretty well and why wouldn't it? The i5-2410m is faster than the Celeron N4020, which is commonly found in many ChromeBooks and budget laptops today, and the i5-2410m wasn't even the best mobile processor back then. Many cheap laptops today are also limited to a soldered-on 4GB of RAM, but most older laptops can be upgraded to 8GB.

I have several other laptops from 2011 which are even weaker (One with I5-560M (upgraded from 380M for 6$) and other with I3-2310M) and they are also mostly fine for web browsing and office, and capable of playing 1080p YouTube video even without hardware acceleration (they don't have VP9 decoding),with H264ify CPU usage drops to 30-40 percents.

With progress in semiconductors slowing down i would expect laptops to last even longer, but with manufactures soldering down RAM and sometimes even SSD maybe that won't be the case. Cause if i wouldn't be able to replaces HHD with SSD and upgrade RAM on these old laptops they would be garbage long time ago.


2008 ThinkPad t400 user here, running Ubuntu. Most business class notebooks are incredibly durable and the market offers replacement parts for 10 of 15 year old devices. A t400 battery is less than 25€ on Amazon and there are dozens of vendors.


I still lug a T430 around. Runs Win 11, hyper-v and 1 bazillion tabs across multiple browsers.


My experience is different. My experience is that the failures are pretty random.

If you expect to lose 20% of laptops each year, after a decade, about 10% of laptops will still work after a decade. It's more if you are willing to work around issues (e.g. epoxy a crack or replace a part).

It's crappy if you need to toss otherwise good computers purely due to a software issue.


My opinion about 10 years ago (most likely affected by inflation now) was that a laptop costs roughly $100/year. When I had an inexpensive $300 laptop, it lasted about 3 years. In that time I opened the case multiple times to fix problems, usually involving overheating. Towards the end the laptop was unusably slow and unable to play full-screen video. When I bought a $1000 laptop, it so far has lasted 8 years and counting. I opened it once to upgrade the memory, and once again to simply tighten screws to reduce the chassis flex that had gotten worse over time.

Failures are random and infrequent if you start with good hardware. Sadly, in my experience a lot of cheap laptops do not come with reliable hardware.


It's less about price than about grades of laptop.

For example, if you buy Lenovo, the Idea* laptops will be junk laptops, while Think* will be pretty good quality. There are sub-grades within both. With Dell, there are usually several series with names changing periodically. In the Latitude series, the first number corresponded to quality when I last bought. 3xxx is junk. 5xxx is decent. 7xxx is good. There are similar divisions in their consumer lines.

It's possible to find very good reliable laptops if you're willing to live with last years' model, and especially with off-lease premium laptops. Corporate environments will often lease a thousand premium laptops for three years, not stress them very hard, and then they're sold for a song as there's a corporate-wide refresh.


My buddy will be delighted to know that his $4700 MacBook is good to go until 2069


> I wouldn't expect that from (...) a Thinkpad

You wouldn't? I have an X230 and it still works fine/is perfectly usable, and that's over 10 years old at this point. Why would you not expect a laptop to last more than 10 years?


If the hardware is still working, and the battery works enough to run off AC, even a 10 year old machine is still usable for a lot of stuff.

I got an Acer Chromebook C720 in 2013ish, and the dual-core Celeron 2955U (Haswell) with 4GB of RAM is still ok. The touchpad stopped working in mine, and I dunno how bad the battery is, and I installed FreeBSD for fun after ChromeOS stopped updating, but I bet it'd run ChromeOS Flex no problem. It doesn't have the virtualization extension needed to run Android apps (not part of ChromeOS Flex anyway), but I don't think there's anything else missing really.

I'll probably install ChromeOS Flex on my Lenovo ThinkPad 13 Chromebook after I let the final official OS update simmer a bit more (it's a pain to get to the firmware write protect screw), it's a much nicer case and a little bit newer processor, but otherwise pretty close to the Acer one; and the touch pad still works. OTOH, I don't think I can change out the storage and as I mentioned the write protect screw is hard to access.


Any Apple laptop has a good chance? My 2011 MacBook Air still works fine (as does the 2013) - the main problem is software support. You’re not playing games on that but it’s fine for email / web / video chat / office docs and light coding. Each of the earlier ones I had was replaced for performance reasons, not failure other than hard drives back when spinning metal was the norm.


>the main problem is software support

Hopefully this announcement will put some pressure on Apple to do the same.


Agreed. They have the lease excuse of any vendor to say drivers are hard to support.


Apple has been top of the industry in terms of length of OS/software support for their devices.

My iPhone 8 is still supported by the current iOS (no longer by 17, womp womp.) It's nearly seven years old, is still on its first battery with about 79% capacity left and it hasn't gone into brownout-prevention mode yet. I'm figuring that with the new iOS release it probably won't be supported, but who knows.

A few whiz-bang features aren't supported; fancy but kinda useless webcam stuff, and newer iPhones can do more extensive object recognition in photos like bugs and plants that I think my phone won't do.

I'm not missing much aside from better cellular band support, which is kind of a wash because my phone has a qualcomm modem and Apple's switch to intel modems didn't go well.

Even the newer cameras aren't tempting because a generation or two after the 8 and X, they all became inflicted with Apple's horrifically bad "AI" image processing that makes everything look like a watercolor painting.


>Apple has been top of the industry in terms of length of OS/software support for their devices.

They have for phones but I think they could do better when it comes to the computers.

Also it would be nice to have a formal statement of what their intentions are.

As an example I have no idea how long my four year old Mac Mini will continue to get updates for.


The average lifespan of a desktop is five years, and for a laptop, 3-5. All of you bitching about how computers older than ten years old not being supported is some massive injustice are completely divorced from reality in the marketplace.

Apple provides security updates for the prior two releases, which means that damn near any Mac made in the last ten years, even without Opencore Legacy, is still receiving security updates.

My 2013 Macbook Pro will run the current MacOS release with Opencore Legacy. That's a now-ten-year-old computer running the current OS release.

Anyone who uses their computer for a significant period of time, and especially to make money, who does not upgrade more quickly than every ten years, isn't very smart. It doesn't take long, waiting for your computer every day, before it's costing you more in lost productivity than it would be to replace it with something newer, especially if you buy used.

Claiming that a ten year old laptop, Apple or otherwise, is "perfectly usable" is a joke by people who clearly haven't spent any appreciable time using current hardware, which is by every single measure enormously better.


> Apple has been top of the industry in terms of length of OS/software support for their devices.

For phones and tablets, sure. For desktops/laptops, Linux outdoes them handily. My mid-2012 MacBook Pro can run Catalina at the latest, which has been outdated for several years and unsupported since last year. But I can still install a current Linux distro on a machine of that era just fine.


This doesn’t absolve Apple of their lack of support for older Macs, but if you want to keep using that MacBook on a more modern MacOS, take a look at Open Core Legacy Patcher. Have Monterey on my 2012 Mac mini and it’s working great.


Linux, with 3% market share, is not "part of the industry" for personal computers like laptops and desktops.

The only valid comparison is versus Windows, because only Windows has similar capabilities and user experience.


Same here. My family uses my MacBook Pro from 2009 on a daily basis, the original unibody model.

Zero issues, I just had to migrate to Linux to get OS updates. It has pretty damn good reliability.

Hardware can last pretty long, it is wasteful not to bother releasing software updates.


Oh Lord. There are lots of early teens/late oughts laptops out there being used today. Non-power-user laptop specs haven't really changed that much since then (4G of ram and 500G of storage) and normal people don't actually care about their processor or graphics card.

I was shift lead for a SIEM team when lockdown started and the number of 2009-2011 era machines that got pulled out of a closet and brought online when remote work started was staggering.


Software should not be a limiting factor in the lifespan of a laptop. If the hardware breaks and you toss it, I think that's much more acceptable than tossing it when the hardware still works but the software is out of date.


As (The Verge's article[https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/14/23873319/google-chromeboo...]) about this points out

``` The company currently guarantees eight years of automatic updates to Chromebooks. That period, however, begins at the time when the company certifies a Chromebook, not when it’s actually in the owner’s hands. Because of the time it takes schools and businesses to purchase, receive, set up, and deploy new fleets of computers, they commonly end up getting four to five years of use out of them in practice. ```

so this is really about ensuring that the laptops actually get 5 years of use before needing to be replaced.


My MacBook Pro 2015 still trundles along just fine, and while that isn’t exactly 10 years it’s getting there. I did replace it with an M1 air for my personal use but my wife is still quite happy with it. The only thing that has needed replacement despite its hefty usage has been the power cable which fell apart at one point. Maybe it had seen too much sun? Not sure exactly, but the plastic sure disintegrated.

I’m not sure I’ll ever really need to replace my M1. I could technically still work on the pro, and I mostly got the M1 because of hype, but I really don’t see what is going to increase my systems requirements in the next 20 years to be beyond what the m1 is currently doing. Maybe if I start doing more compiling on it instead of in the cloud? But I really think we’re at the point where it’ll physically break before the spec become obsolete, or alternatively, that it’ll stop getting updates from Apple. At which point I guess it can just live on with Linux.


I run a small convention that just needs some easy to setup web kiosks to use for checkin. We bought a lot of 30 surplus Chromebooks at $15 each a few years ago, but we're throwing them out because of lack of support.


Why not just isolate their network and keep using them? I can't imagine this being a big risk for a convention checkin system.


I am using a 12 year old Thinkpad as a secondary device. I don't see why it won't last me another 10. It runs a responsive and quite good looking modern Linux desktop environment from a HDD and I am not even using 40% of the RAM I have on it. I am obviously not encoding 4K video, running AI or AAA games on it, but for most things that people do on computers, it's perfectly fine.

This wasn't the case in 20-25 years ago when stuff would outdate real fast. 90% of people don't really need new computers.


As I said, the previous window was 8 years. Presumably schools are able to get end up with enough 8 year EOL laptops to have caused a storm about it. If they were manage cause that miracle, then they can probably manage to get enough of them to 10 years as well.

(And yes, I know what the real answer is - they bought bargain bin laptops like 4-6 years after RTM, so they only have like 2-4 years of actual wear and tear on them. Given their carelessness the first time, I wouldn't rule out a repeat in 2 years).


I bought an eeepc netbook in 2008. It was my main computer until 2012, spent several years sitting on a shelf, and now is my daughter's. It's still doing fine, as are the two other eeepcs people in my family bought around the same time.

It's not useful for very much, since it's way underpowered for most things you might want to do today, but it still works for typing and basic networking.


I still have functioning Thinkpads from 2011. They run well with SATA SSDs and minimal Linux distros, and they're handy in the garage or on a workbench where you might not your expensive devices lying around but need to reference technical data.


My personal laptop is a Thinkpad x250 from 2015. That is "only" 8 years old at this point, but I have every intention of continuing to use it for the foreseeable future.


I have an HP Elitebook 8460p that was released in 2011 and is still working really well.

It got ssd and battery replacements + memory upgrade though.


Rugged Chromebooks? I still use Acer R11s (albeit these are non-rugged) that were released in 2015 -- almost 10 years ago.


The problem with Chromebooks is that their supported period is ticking even when they are sitting unsold in the shop in the unopened box. So someone buying a new condition 3 year old model Chromebook with lets say 5 years of support would only get 2 years of support left. So this change will mostly makes them competitive with a regular laptops on the support terms.


typically a school chromebook will break in 3-4 years though




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