Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

Hmm. I agree that it's normalized (as you said below), and not controversial to lots of people. But I think that's because people are mostly fine with casual sexism, as long as it's not too obvious.

So think about this. You've seen it applied to both genders. How is it applied to men? "Whiny little bitch"; "I'm gonna make you my bitch"; "Suck it, bitch"; "Stop bitching ..." Here's what those phrases mean to people, not in the past but today: "you're acting like a weak, pathetic woman"; "I'm going to sexually dominate you like a woman".

How is it applied to women? "Stop your bitching." "Shut up, bitch." "She's such a bitch." Can you guess how those ones come across? "Shut up, stop complaining, and smile the way you're supposed to." "I own you; do what I say." "She doesn't act the way women should."

Right now (if you're not a terrible person :) you're already typing "that's not what it means when I say it!" And I sorta believe you, and that's great. But there's a reason that if you stop using "bitch," you won't have a good word to replace it. "Bitch" is a powerful, useful word exactly because it's great for calling men women, and telling women to stay in their place. Those messages hit hard, because it hasn't been very long since women were literally property, so having a quick way to hit someone with them comes in handy. And you don't get to choose how people hear your words -- when you use it, that's what's lurking right under the surface, and it's what a lot of people will hear.

Go ahead and keep doing it if that's your thing. Even try to reclaim it. But some of us are going to think you're just another schmuck blindly supporting the idea that men are one way and women are another way and men should be in charge of women. I haven't used the word "offensive" here, because that makes it all about me. I'm not offended.* It doesn't matter if I'm offended. What matters is that words promote ideas, and the word "bitch" promotes a stupid idea, and you might not want to do that.

* (Offended is such a weak emotion anyway. I recommend self-righteous anger, bitter amusement, cold calculation or cynical detachment. No one is merely offended.)



Thank you for properly countering my post.

First, I'd like to address this:

"Go ahead and keep doing it if that's your thing."

This hurt me a bit. I was merely quoting and defending the words in this context. I can't recollect having used them myself either when speaking or writing before, ever. I am pretty reserved when it comes to using these kinds of words, even though I am surrounded by people using them every day.

Same thing with "But I think that's because people are mostly fine with casual sexism, as long as it's not too obvious". I am, for example, bothered at times when I hear male classmates saying "Get back in the kitchen." to female ones. It's meant as a joke, it always is, but that doesn't sit right with me.

I look at the individual, not the sex of a person. I consider "bitch" to be a word free from association to the female sex, today. One thing that may be influencing me is that nearly all of my classmates are male, which means that the times I do hear "bitch" it's used with a male... and certainly not in the way you suggest, except for the last one. Which brings me to the point I was trying to make:

It's an expression for "being a pain in the ass", something which both men and women (and all in-between) can be. Leaving the gender fully out of it is a good thing, as someone else has said, the meaning of words can change.

Finally, perhaps there are a few cultural differences. I grew up and live in Sweden, and while we borrow many words from English perhaps not all their meaning, and in particular, the history behind their usage is brought along with them. The old fashioned use of bitch may be more alive in other places, I suppose.

In short, I do not appreciate words and expressions where the downgrading of women is obvious, but I do not consider bitch being one of these words. If you do find someone using it to downgrade women, teach him (or her) a lesson. When I read "And yet, why don't we hear the people who always bitch about Google complaining about Microsoft?", I didn't get an image of "women in their right place" in my head, but one of raging nerds.


Thanks for your reply. Apologies for making it too personal. When I first had this conversation from the other side, I think my stance was "I say 'bitch,' and I'm not sexist, so it must be fine and I just have to figure out why." So I tend to assume other people are coming from the same place, which isn't always true.

Your point about cultural differences is interesting. You said "the times I do hear 'bitch' it's used with a male... and certainly not in the way you suggest, except for the last one." Maybe the point is, if you're talking to American men or women, they will have heard all of the uses of "bitch" I quoted, many times (hopefully more on TV than in real life). So in a general web publication, it comes with that whole baggage. And since all the ways it's used are closely related, you can't really avoid the more sexist connotations.


   "I'm going to sexually dominate you like a woman".
If you want to be pedantic, it's:

  I'm going to sexually dominate you like a female dog.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: