> The real luxury, for any age, in general, is in not having dependencies and needs.

Fewer. Everyone will always have some dependencies and needs.

Personally, I pity anyone who sees a desire to be loved as a weakness. That’s quite literally a lesson taught as a trope about being a good person vs an evil one.

Being loved is not a weakness. But a strong requirement to be loved is a weakness because that means you don't have strength to be happy without being loved.

And that perspective presumes that being loved isn’t a fundamental human need.

Eating is not a weakness. But a strong requirement to eat is a weakness because you don't have the strength to be happy without eating.

I would actually argue that eating is a weakness, that every single human (and animals in general) just happen to share.

At some level you are defined by your weaknesses enough that they can't really be called weaknesses.

Definitely, but it would be silly to say not needing to eat is a luxury. Not starving, perhaps.

Isn't that true? Not being able to live without eating is, in fact, a weakness, just a very common one.

Love is extremely common. It is not particularly much of a weakness because there are plenty of people who will love you. Now, finding that person, or those people, depending on exactly what it means, that could be hard. There are also a lot of people who will abuse your need for love, and so you do have to be careful.

This is actually a sad comment. How did you ever come to believe that wanting to feel loved, which is a fundamental desire (if not "need") for the vast majority of human beings, could ever be construed as a weakness resulting from a lack of "strength"?

To steel-man their argument, I think what they are trying to describe is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxious-preoccupied_attachment vs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_attachment

But your steel-man actually proves my point: people who have insecure attachment commonly develop such an attachment style as a result of their childhood relationships with their caregivers.

It has absolutely nothing to do with being "strong" versus "weak".

Under your steel-man, someone who is anxious-avoidant could appear very independent and therefore "strong" even though they are struggling inside.

How then about monks or priests? I wouldn't clasify them as all of them being sad or having a fundamental need to be loved. Also loved can have different meaning - mostly people think about family and partners. There is also community.

Charitably interpreted, GP is already loved and takes it for granted while arguing about a straw man. Or perhaps GP is specifically talking about someone who has trouble loving themself without a romantic partner.

A rock feels no pain.

And an island never cries.

A rock never feels anything. That's the price, and it's a very steep one.

I agree with the gist what you're saying, like ditching the ego, the status chasing, etc. But dragging stuff like staying connected, being knowledgable, enjoying good food, and travel is where this goes a bit too far. A rock has zero dependencies, but nobody wants to be a rock.

I have mixed feelings about travel. Simply because so much of it seems to be about status chasing. Then you have the whole commercial world trying to convince you it is important. You never see them suggesting you take a ten mile hike from your front door.

This! I want new art, books, music. Yes, I want them. And I want delicious coffee. That's one of the reasons this life is worth living!

Just give me a place with safe dense public transportation, walkable places to eat, and nature to relax.

Just give me some land outside of the city, where I can’t really see or hear my neighbors, where I have enough space for an enormous garden, lots of native plants for the butterflies and bees, and a giant workshop. Starry skies at night shared with my wife and a dog or two.

And since I have the space, maybe a sauna and cold plunge would be nice. You know, stretch goals.

I did this for a few years but it got lonely. Now I draw energy from being around people, and walking to do things has lowered my blood pressure and weight. Subways and regional trains also allow me to live a larger radius.

Haven't used public transport in a long time. I used it to commute in the past but stopped using it during COVID.

Can't say I miss it. Prefer to just leave when I want, go where I want and stay there as long as I want. All while not enjoying other peoples music and smell or waiting at a platform for ages.

> Prefer to just leave when I want, go where I want and stay there as long as I want.

Which you can do with a good public transport system! You should not have to wait for a subway train for more than 5 minutes. Ideally no more than 1-2.

A subway is only for local trips. And only a very small part of the world has subways. I have never lived in a place with a subway. I did briefly live in Amsterdam but the subway wasn't very useful there.

With private transport I can go anywhere on the continent whenever I want.

Edit: reply to flexagoon since I am rate limited:

Going around Europe on trains is a total pain. There is a reason almost nobody does that and use airplanes instead.

Perhaps they can make the comfort of trains comparable with airplanes, so more people use it.

I'm OK with allocating tax money for better public transport but I just don't see myself using it.

Of course, I don't think anyone in this thread is advocating for banning private transport and only keeping public transit for everything. But most of the trips people take are local, and a good public transport system makes that much better for everyone (including the car drivers).

You can also go around the continent on trains. We should have more high speed rail.

Private transport is of course still hugely useful for many cases, but there are also many cases where it could easily be replaced for many people by a good transit system. And I'm not just talking about the US, which people usually give as an example of bad transit. EU's railway network should be much better.

With good enough public transit, you can do all that. When I lived in Seattle, I did not bother looking at the bus schedule before leaving, because usually I was waiting less than 10 minutes.

Must be nice, I have not encountered such public transport in the places I lived in Europe.

It's 0:45 currently. I want to grab an ice cream at McDonalds. Next bus leaves at 1:25. It takes the bus 20 minutes to get there and then it is a 5 minute walk. It is also a 10 minute walk to the bus station in my neighborhood. And since it's past 22:00 there are probably a bunch of crazies on the bus. Also a high chance of puke and trash in the bus.

Why would I do that if I can grab my bike and it is only a 10 minute ride.

You probably wouldn't, just like you wouldn't drive your car to visit your next door neighbor.

I wouldn't use public transport to visit my next door neighbor.

Right. Did you think I was suggesting you would? I was trying to use an analogy to illustrate that different modes of transportation are complementary. You don't need a bus for a 10 minute bike trip.

Ok boomer

Millennial actually.

>Time, quiet mind, slow mornings, rest without guilt, calm and boring days - are all the same thing - escape from being busy. This assumes being busy is common, which is actually not that common for an age of 60+.

If there's anything 60+ are starting to not have enough of is time. As you get older time is running out. Not free time - time in general, as in life expectancy.

Regular free time can be elusive too if you're still forced to work, which can be the case until your mid to late 60s, a common pension age globally or if your savings have been wiped out.

"Slow mornings, rest without guilt, calm and boring days" too are not just "escape from being busy", but also being away from all kinds of bad situations: war, social turmoil, family drama, spouse dying, and others, that are not just about not being busy with work. Being 60+ might help with being busy (if you're retiring), but not with those.

>The real luxury, for any age, in general, is in not having dependencies and needs. The need to impress someone, the need to know every ugly news from around globe, the need to read everything and be knowledgeable, need to stay connected, need to be smart, the need to travel and see places, need to taste foods from around the world, need to have many friends, need to be loved by someone, and need to have more money and things.

That's sort of true, but too much of that can also mean one is just a jaded, burnt out person who doesn't care about anything and has no joy anymore.

I have to regularly travel to rural villages in Asia and the people that live in these places have only the most basic human desires. They barely know what an LLM is let alone interact with them. They're some of the happiest people I've ever met.

Of course they'll complain about work or money, and they assume that a Western salary buys me freedom. But they get to live through these luxuries on a daily basis. I'd be lucky to enjoy just one of these in any given week.

Not to be glib, but I assume you're not quitting your Western job and moving there. So isn't this romanticizing it?

Yeah as someone whose family left this, you guys are crazy

I have my own family dependencies that aren't too keen on the idea of living the village life. Otherwise I'd already be there.

I saw a video of a guy in his 50s living in a small city in Vietnam. He claimed $800/mo was more than enough, and $1000/mo would let him live lavishly. He just did the math and as soon as his predicted months of life left * 1000 < savings he pulled the trigger.

I think about that a lot because I have already hit that number easily, my family would definitely suffer though and not be into it.

There is a reason that South East Asia is popular for digital nomads and for retired expats. Thailand and Vietnam have still very affordable places if you avoid tourist traps. I would recommend first trying some easier destination like chiang mai or danang (if first time in asia), staying for 2 months (vacation/workation) and seeing if you still like it.

It’s not that easy to emigrate afaik, even ignoring family and obligations like that.

for real happiness it would be the most important thing if not romanticizing.

But is that true though? This seems bit of a romanticism. Having lived in rural villages in Asia, I can tell you people are about as happy as anywhere else. They worry about not being able to afford or have access to basic healthcare. They worry about one off season rain destroying their livelihoods for the season. Depending on where you are, some worry about a sudden onset of escalating violence. Plenty of people don’t even have access to drinking water. Some worry about their land and only source of income taken away by larger interests.

Desires only tend to magnify in intensity and multiply in numbers because there is rarely enough.

Working on desire is a big thing.

Beautifully put, and definitely resonated with me as someone who entered mostly-contentedly-frugal retirement a few years back.

One thing you didn't mention is the need to feel useful in some way; would you consider that a weakness too? Is it covered by "rest without guilt"? It's the bit I still have some trouble with.

Not OP, but there's a nuance. In general there's nothing wrong with wanting to be useful, but it is definitely possible to take it too far.

If you get sick and need care, you are typically not "useful". But that doesn't mean you instantly lose all value. I've had colleagues who would feel almost physically ill if they were somehow not able to respond to an incident somewhere, even if they weren't even on call at that point. Almost all of them burned out at some point and were no longer able to respond to anything, even if they'd wanted to. That's not healthy, and it weakens everyone in the long run.

Resting without guilt comes from the realization that you cannot keep the world running all by yourself. Let others pick up the work when you need a rest, so you can shelter them when they are down.

That is quite opposite of weakness. Your entire life is exercising power of your mind. What is left if you take it away? Do the thing you love and you will find your happiness.

Even just asking that question implies self-judgment and a need to “do the right thing”. Perhaps just be, and that is enough.

> Perhaps just be, and that is enough.

Don't be evil tho

So true.

I know a couple, retired, who are constantly traveling to Europe and Japan. When they’re not traveling, they spend all their time reading or visiting with their kids and grandkids.

I often want to tell them: You fools! You’ll never find happiness if all you do is give in to these weaknesses!

> The real luxury, for any age, in general, is in not having dependencies and needs. The need to impress someone, the need to know every ugly news from around globe, the need to read everything and be knowledgeable, need to stay connected, need to be smart, the need to travel and see places, need to taste foods from around the world, need to have many friends, need to be loved by someone, and need to have more money and things.

This echoes with my (limited) understanding of Buddhism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths#The_Four_Tru...

Are the need to make music, the need to read books, the need to work on and improve myself dependencies that make me weak?

Lacking those things is not a luxury. What is a luxury is time. Time is incredibly precious.

Nicely said.

Having dependencies or needs is one thing, having them managed for relative minimal impact on one's time might be another way to look at it for some.

You can decide not to do any of these things. In fact, not wanting _anything_ is 100% within your control. It's literally what the stoics built the entirety of their philosophy on: aversion to pain and pleasure and redirection to moral choice

I agree with some of what you listed here but a few I think are critical to being human. What's the point of not having needs?

Desires are what makes us human. I have kids and family and friends that love me and them in return but I don't believe that makes me weak. In fact it is the opposite, they give me the strength, confidence, and motivation to power through life.

I supoose not having any needs and desires would be an asset for a hitman.

Desires are OK as long as they don't make you unhappy when you can't have them. But that's not usually the case, which means they became crutches, making your happiness to depend on achieving them.

As an example, there are places where people don't see electricity as an absolute necessity. Hours of outages everyday go mostly unnoticed. That's lack of strong dependency.

We need purpose, as a species; after all we left the caves for a better life. Desires make us human, the pursuit keep us busy and entertained. There is no passion without wanting, and without passion what is the reason for living?

Without them then you wouldn't have strength, confidence or motivation and you wouldn't power through life. But you might be just as happy?

That is a nice list for someone in their 20s with no responsibilities.

Once you get a partner, kids, elderly parents, pets, mortgage, etc. you won't be worrying about your needs anymore trust me.

As someone in my 30s I'm not sure I need the things on your list. Can't escape the aging of my parents but I'm lucky they will be able to financially support themselves through retirement. If I do add complications to my life I'll be careful to do my best ensuring it's a net benefit to my stability and peace.

yeah some people are very orthodox and think having a partner, kids, pets, mortgage is a must. The easiest exceptions is being a monk or priest and they are fine and society accept it.

Age has nothing to do with it. Those were your life style choices and they now impact you for the rest of your life. You could well have done the opposite and thrown all your earnings into the SP500, rented for cheap near your parents, traveled the world, and have no partner and/or multiple partners

Why would I want a slow morning? That sounds miserable, like the opposite of luxury.

Yeah why would anyone want to chill, I want my boss shaking me awake at 5am shoving adderall into my mouth

    > need to taste foods from around the world

Since the 2000s, in most highly developed countries, you are spoiled for choice if you live within 20km of a medium-/large-sized city. You don't need to travel more than a few km to enjoy cuisine from outside your region.

    > need to be loved by someone

Jesus: Tell me you are a man without telling me you are a man. Few women I know would ever say something like that.

I wonder how relationships even form then. (It's possible that they don't, yeah.)

IANAP but any philosophy based on absence is a nihilism

It's also true that if you raise you expectations enough then you will never be able to hit them.

Keep in mind that it's not always a case of "shoot for the stars but hit the moon if you miss", sometimes it's "shoot for the stars and suffer crippling burnout for 20 years, after which it's too late to recover to anything meaningful".

Being realistic, for all it's boringness, does have advantages.