My problem with tabs is that it groups all shell sessions together in one window, all the web pages I'm looking at in another window, all the files I'm editing in a further window of their own.
Suppose I am editing two files (A and B) in a text editor: two tabs in one full-screen window. And suppose I am referring to two pages (C and D) of documentation in a web browser: two tabs in another full-screen window.
(Can we take it as read that I have one monitor and it's not big enough to have a coding window and a documentation window next to each other without overlapping. Maybe I have to get a lot of work done while on planes/trains/buses; maybe I can't keep my concentration if I always work in the same chair and lugging second monitors around is tedious; maybe my boiler, washing machine and second monitor just broke and I can't afford to replace them all this month. A second monitor mitigates but does not solve the issues I will describe.)
If I am adding text to A and need to refer to B for a moment, I can just switch tabs. Easy.
If I am reading C and need to refer to D for a moment, I can just switch tabs. Easy.
If I am adding text to A and need to refer to C for a moment, I need to switch windows, and then maybe I need to switch tabs as well; I can't in general know whether I will need to switch tabs until after I have switched windows. At least if I am flipping repeatedly between A and C I will only have to switch windows.
Otoh, if I am flipping between A, C and D, then it starts getting a bit difficult keeping track of whether I need to Alt+Tab or Alt+digit or both (add a tmux/screen session into the mix and you've got three different ways of switching between things; scatter related things across multiple desktops and you have four). Because I just think of them as A, B, C and D; the computer thinks of them as Editor A, Editor B, Browser C and Browser D. The computer forces me to be explicit about whether the document I want to switch to is open in a different or the same application. The computer already knows: why do I have to tell it again?
This is a problem for me. Perhaps it is not a problem for you; perhaps you can deal with all these details subconsciously.
If you take the old Windows taskbar (before it started grouping windows according to which application they were from) and place it on the left (instead of the bottom), there's space to display more windows before you run out of space. Add typical application-tab-management features to the taskbar (drag-and-drop to reorder, individual close buttons in the list), then most people won't need application-tabs (i.m.o, of course).
(Some people would have too many windows open for this to be feasible. But then some people have so many tabs open in Firefox that they have to install a tab management extension to manage them all.)
You might complain that to some extent I'm reinventing tabs at the window level. That's kind of the point: application-tabs are easier to use than windows. Their drawback is that they silo tabs from different applications away from each other. Let's break that restriction.
Thank you for taking the time to explain that and also for remaining on point in the face of my aggressive interrogation. I think I understand your frustration, but I'm not clear on the solution.
> ...take the old Windows taskbar...place it on the left...Add typical application-tab-management features to the taskbar...then most people won't need application-tabs.
I think that I have this with Windows (7/8/2012) and 7+ Taskbar Tweaker.
I can separate all my app windows and each will show up in my taskbar. I can drag/drop reorder them without them getting grouped up (via 7+). I can close each taskbar item with a middle-click of my mouse button or right-click menu just like in Chrome. The ability to do all of this tanks to 7+ is indeed liberating. (However, I still need tabs for browser and code windows.)
Based on the quoted text above, it seems like you're suggesting that we just go back to individual windows (i.e. no tabbed document interfaces in any app). Let's call that Idea X. But then you say:
> ...application-tabs are easier to use than windows. Their drawback is that they silo tabs from different applications away from each other. Let's break that restriction.
Reading the last two sentences I thought...what you're suggesting is that a single window could contain tabs from separate apps. That way you could group windows A and C together when you need to. Is that correct? I was imagining Chrome where each tab could be a different app's window and they could all just be grouped however you want. (This is Idea Y.)
If that's what you're suggesting - I don't know - it could be nice (if done well...in a way that meets everyone's needs), but it doesn't seem to solve your described scenario. You'd have to group all of your app-window-tabs ahead of time and that's as much work as you're doing now.
Did you suggest Idea X, Y, both or did I miss something?
X would be inadequate for people who have a hundred windows open. Y would be a possible solution for them (but I'm aware there is a lot of experimentation occurring in this area).
But I was trying to emphasise that I don't hate tabs (I'd be quite content if tabs replaced windows; to some extent that's what my suggestion is). I perceived that you thought I hated tabs and wanted to counter that impression.
I am now feeling vaguely envious of MS-Windows in a way I haven't in a long time.
Suppose I am editing two files (A and B) in a text editor: two tabs in one full-screen window. And suppose I am referring to two pages (C and D) of documentation in a web browser: two tabs in another full-screen window.
(Can we take it as read that I have one monitor and it's not big enough to have a coding window and a documentation window next to each other without overlapping. Maybe I have to get a lot of work done while on planes/trains/buses; maybe I can't keep my concentration if I always work in the same chair and lugging second monitors around is tedious; maybe my boiler, washing machine and second monitor just broke and I can't afford to replace them all this month. A second monitor mitigates but does not solve the issues I will describe.)
If I am adding text to A and need to refer to B for a moment, I can just switch tabs. Easy.
If I am reading C and need to refer to D for a moment, I can just switch tabs. Easy.
If I am adding text to A and need to refer to C for a moment, I need to switch windows, and then maybe I need to switch tabs as well; I can't in general know whether I will need to switch tabs until after I have switched windows. At least if I am flipping repeatedly between A and C I will only have to switch windows.
Otoh, if I am flipping between A, C and D, then it starts getting a bit difficult keeping track of whether I need to Alt+Tab or Alt+digit or both (add a tmux/screen session into the mix and you've got three different ways of switching between things; scatter related things across multiple desktops and you have four). Because I just think of them as A, B, C and D; the computer thinks of them as Editor A, Editor B, Browser C and Browser D. The computer forces me to be explicit about whether the document I want to switch to is open in a different or the same application. The computer already knows: why do I have to tell it again?
This is a problem for me. Perhaps it is not a problem for you; perhaps you can deal with all these details subconsciously.
If you take the old Windows taskbar (before it started grouping windows according to which application they were from) and place it on the left (instead of the bottom), there's space to display more windows before you run out of space. Add typical application-tab-management features to the taskbar (drag-and-drop to reorder, individual close buttons in the list), then most people won't need application-tabs (i.m.o, of course).
(Some people would have too many windows open for this to be feasible. But then some people have so many tabs open in Firefox that they have to install a tab management extension to manage them all.)
You might complain that to some extent I'm reinventing tabs at the window level. That's kind of the point: application-tabs are easier to use than windows. Their drawback is that they silo tabs from different applications away from each other. Let's break that restriction.