As an atheist myself, I don't know what to make of people who say they're religious or believe in god. Are they for real, or are they just saying that for cultural reasons.
I don't remember ever believing in anything supernatural (not even santa claus or the tooth fairy), so I can't know whether it's really possible.
I find the vast majority of "religious" people aren't really religious, but rather quite agnostic if you question them.
Although I'm not religious, I am agnostic. Why? Because no one can credibly say they know a damn thing about the metaphysical. To me, hardcore atheists are almost as bad as religious fundamentalists in their own way. Basically, both groups of people believe something which they feel everyone else needs to accept or else they're wrong and are evil. And in both cases the thing they are so self-assured about is essentially unknowable.
To me, religion is a branch of philosophy. There are a lot of useful ideas developed there over the centuries. Atheists often talk about the evil created religion, but evil will use whatever tool is available—we sit in this forum worshiping startups, yet capitalism has done just as much evil as religion (or at least, it's on its way to). The other thing atheist fundamentalists do (as peterforde does above) is set up a strawman to be argued from a scientific perspective. If you say that god is a bearded man sitting in the sky then of course it sounds ridiculous, but that's ignoring the fact that it's a millenia-old imagery created for pre-scientific people. As much as we get angry over evolution-deniers and creationists, it's equally ridiculous to cherry-pick some age old metaphor, state as a falsifiable hypothesis and then demonstrate its ridiculousness on scientific grounds.
Atheists often claim rationality on their side, but how rational is it to invoke religious beliefs in a thread about sexist asshole talk? It's an utter non-sequitur and what it demonstrates is an irrational axe to grind.
Atheism is not the belief that there is nothing supernatural, it's simply the absence of any belief that there is.
> "To me, hardcore atheists are almost as bad as religious fundamentalists in their own way"
This is ridiculous, religious fundamentalists kill people in the name of their religion. What atheist has ever done that?
> "capitalism has done just as much evil as religion"
You're comparing apples with oranges. This is just as much of a non-sequitor as bringing up atheism in a discussion about sexism (like you mentioned below).
> "Atheists often claim rationality on their side, but how rational is it to invoke religious beliefs in a thread about sexist asshole talk? It's an utter non-sequitur and what it demonstrates is an irrational axe to grind."
Agreed, not sure what peterforde was trying to accomplish here.
> This is ridiculous, religious fundamentalists kill people in the name of their religion. What atheist has ever done that?
Good point, I was narrow in my thinking and didn't mean with regard to real violence, I was speaking more to the endless debates seen on the internet and generally in western society.
Of course, following your definition, the absence of belief makes it hard to attribute anything specifically to atheism. My point is not to condemn atheism in general, but rather the militant variety that is not to content to judge people on their actions and deeds, but must attack their beliefs. Attacking someone who has beliefs you do not share is certainly not unique to atheists (it's fundamental human nature I suppose), but there is a certain hypocrisy about it that I find very distasteful.
Well as long as you acknowledge that "militant atheism" is not the same thing as "militant islam" (etc) in that the key word "militant" means a very different thing.
A "militant" atheist may be distasteful, but his/her "attacks" don't physically hurt people and harm society.
I would think that the willingness to suffer or die because of your beliefs is a reasonable piece of evidence that the beliefs are genuine. Obviously that doesn't happen much in the Western world these days, but it certainly has happened a lot throughout history and continues to happen today.
> I would think that the willingness to suffer or die because of your beliefs is a reasonable piece of evidence that the beliefs are genuine.
Surely you didn't mean to say "genuine", assuming you understand the meaning of the word. You may have meant "sincere". But "genuine" implies that the belief is true, which is a property not necessary for a belief to be sincerely held, and that contradicts the meaning of "belief" as a view held without regard for the evidence.
In my sentence, "genuine" modifies "belief," not the thing that is believed. I believe this is common English usage. "Genuine belief" is a common phrase with the meaning I intended, as in "I hope you don't genuinely believe that."
All I am saying is that, in English, to avoid confusing people about your meaning, you're much better off saying "sincere belief".
> My phrasing matches standard English usage.
So does saying "literally" when you mean figuratively -- all the dictionaries now list this perversion, but it's still inadvisable and still sows confusion among educated readers.
It's one thing to argue that a usage is accepted by lexicographers, but quite another to try to engage in effective communications.
> So does saying "literally" when you mean figuratively -- all the dictionaries now list this perversion, but it's still inadvisable and still sows confusion among educated readers.
No, that's not advisable. Just like I'm using "genuine" correctly (it has meant "authentic" at least as far back as the 17th century), "literally" can also be correctly used to mean "figuratively." Simply put: you are not the authoritative body of the English language.
> I'm using "genuine" correctly (it has meant "authentic" at least as far back as the 17th century) ...
Yes, you did use it correctly, but in a context that leads the reader to wonder whether you're referring to the belief itself, or to its holder's sincerity in holding it.
> Simply put: you are not the authoritative body of the English language.
Point to any of my words that give you that idea. Can't do that? My point is not correct usage, it is effective communication. With respect to that, there are no authorities except the outcome.
> but in a context that leads the reader to wonder whether you're referring to the belief itself, or to its holder's sincerity in holding it.
That's been my point this entire time. You appear to be the only reader who was confused, and it seems to be due to some rather bizarre ideas you have about the English language. I am confident that my original comment would serve as effective communication to the overwhelming majority of native English speakers. The intended audience of my comment did not include advocates of prescriptive linguistics, which is fine, because vanishingly few of those exist, and the ones who do spend most of their time attempting to argue that everyone else doesn't know how to effectively communicate.
>> but in a context that leads the reader to wonder whether you're referring to the belief itself, or to its holder's sincerity in holding it.
> That's been my point this entire time.
Yes, I know, and rather than take the advice of someone with six decades of English writing experience, you chose to defend a questionable word choice as thought it was self-evident.
> You appear to be the only reader who was confused ...
How very scientific. Has it occurred to you that I am also the only reader? In any case, this is easily resolved by polling common usage:
And looking more carefully, one finds that many of the "genuine belief" citations are meant to refer to a belief in something thought to be true. Example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtBCrMLBCPw, in which this remark appears in the comments: "How could a belief that contradicts available information be a genuine belief?"
> and the ones who do spend most of their time attempting to argue that everyone else doesn't know how to effectively communicate.
To the degree that I do this at all, I reserve my efforts for examples in which ... wait for it ... someone clearly doesn't know how to effectively communicate.
I should add that I suffered through the video you mentioned (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtBCrMLBCPw) long enough to establish that the word usage in the video's description matches my usage. She is arguing that people who believe in Hell (in the context of Christianity) do not truly/sincerely/actually/genuinely believe. Her argument is that belief based on fear rather than on evidence and sensory experience is not true/sincere/actual/genuine belief. She references fideism and belief for the sake of belief:
> Yes, I know, and rather than take the advice of someone with six decades of English writing experience, you chose to defend a questionable word choice as thought it was self-evident.
I don't care how much writing experience you have or claim to have. You're wrong in this case. All the evidence is against you, and frankly I'm confused why you persist in your argument.
Your use of Google results of as suppose evidence is extremely damning to your own position and to your grasp of the English language. So my usage is 66% as common as yours? That's pretty good evidence that both are very common and well-accepted. You're also implying that only the most common way to phrase an idea should be used, which is ludicrous, especially coming from someone who claims to have writing experience. "Cat" has 447 million results, while "feline" has a mere 11.2 million, so according to your logic, "feline" is a misuse of the English language.
> And looking more carefully, one finds that many of the "genuine belief" citations are meant to refer to a belief in something thought to be true.
In something thought to be true? That's what the word "believe" means. Have you been reading my comments closely? My entire point is that a "genuine belief" is a belief which is sincerely held by someone, regardless of whether the thing believed is itself real. The Google results for "genuine belief" support my usage. I checked literally every result in the first two pages, and every single one supports my usage. A few examples:
"Four billion people say they believe in God, but few genuinely believe. If people believed in God, they would live every minute of their lives in support of that belief, people would give their lives in support of that belief." http://www.mydd.com/users/gary-boatwright/posts/the-man-the-...
"The well known case of British Homes Stores v Burchell (EAT 1980 ICR 303) provides that where an employer dismisses on suspicion of misconduct they must establish (i) that they held a genuine belief the employee was guilty of the alleged misconduct, (ii) that the genuine belief is based on reasonable grounds, and (iii) the grounds for holding that belief were established after an investigation that was reasonable in all the circumstances of the case. The Tribunal does not necessarily have to agree with the employer’s view or consider whether their conclusion was objectively correct or justified." http://www.allanmcdougall.co.uk/employment_law/unfair_dismis...
I agree that they exist, but I don't personally know anyone like that. I'm talking about the average person who says "I'm catholic", "I'm jewish" or "I'm hindu" etc (and are the types of people who usually pitch to VCs). They haven't really questioned their beliefs.
I have no idea about the average person, or how you would even measure or quantify what it means to "actually" believe something you claim to believe. I suppose you could say the same thing about any belief system, even empiricism or scientific rationalism. How do you prove that you "actually" believe in anything?
I suppose you would "measure" how they act rather than what they say. If someone says I'm willing to "die for Allah" and then actually becomes a suicide bomber, that's pretty solid evidence.
I don't remember ever believing in anything supernatural (not even santa claus or the tooth fairy), so I can't know whether it's really possible.
I find the vast majority of "religious" people aren't really religious, but rather quite agnostic if you question them.