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With 1M tokens you can dump 2000 pages of documents into the context windows before starting a chat.

Gemini's strength isn't in being able to answer logic puzzles, it's strength is in its context length. Studying for an exam? Just put the entire textbook in the chat. Need to use a dead language for an old test system with no information on the internet? Drop the 1300 page reference manual in and ask away.



How much do those input tokens cost?

According to https://ai.google.dev/pricing it's $0.70/million input tokens (for a long context). That will be per-exchange, so every little back and forth will cost around that much (if you're using a substantial portion of the context window).

And while I haven't tested Gemini, most LLMs get increasingly wonky as the context goes up, more likely to fixate, more likely to forget instructions.

That big context window could definitely be great for certain tasks (especially information extraction), but it doesn't feel like a generally useful feature.


That per exchange context cost is what really puts me off using cloud LLM for anything serious. I know batching and everything is needed in the data center, and important for keeping around KVQ cache, you basically need to fully take over machine to get an interactive session to get the context costs to scale with sequence length. So it's useful, but more in the case of a local LLaMA type situation if you want a conversation.


It makes building any app that requires generous user prompting impossible to build for regular developers (cloud pricing).

$20 hosting can serve thousands of users per month. $20 llm sub services just one person. This is fucking impossible.


How are you hosting for $20 per month? I've been under the impression that I'd need to pay closer to $200 to self host.

I'm building a small assistant tool and thought I'm forced to use APIs!


I wonder if we could implement the equivalent of a JIT compilation, whereby context sequences which get repeatedly reused would be used for an online fine-tuning.


No, but you can just cache the state after processing the prompt. https://github.com/ggerganov/llama.cpp/tree/master/examples/...


[flagged]


They are asking if you can take the context being passed per interaction and train it into a session in real time (via an online algorithm).

Essentially bake the context passed in to the attention layer so that you can pass only the relevant chat context.

Your post wasn’t a particularly charitable interpretation.


Is there a way to amortize that cost over several queries, i.e. "pre-bake" a document into a context persisted in some form to allow cheaper follow-up queries about it?


They announced that today, calling it "context caching" - but it looks like it's only going to be available for Gemini Pro 1.5, not for Gemini Flash.

It reduces prompt costs by half for those shared prefix tokens, but you have to pay $4.50/million tokens/hour to keep that cache warm - so probably not a useful optimization for most lower traffic applications.

https://ai.google.dev/gemini-api/docs/caching


> It reduces prompt costs by half for those shared prefix tokens, but you have to pay $4.50/million tokens/hour to keep that cache warm - so probably not a useful optimization for most lower traffic applications

That's on a model with $3.5/1M input token cost, so half price on cached prefix tokens for $4.5/1M/hour breaks even at a little over 2.5 requests/hour using the cached prefix.


Though I'm not familiar with the specifics, they announced "context caching"


Depending on the output window limit, the first query could be something like: "Summarize this down to its essential details" -- then use that to feed future queries.

Tediously, it would be possible to do this chapter by chapter in order to exceed the output limit building something for future inputs.

Of course, the summary might not fulfill the same functionality as the original source document. YMMV


Can anyone speculate on how G arrived at this price, and perhaps how it contrasts with how OAI arrived at its updated pricing? (realizing it can't be held up directly to GPT x at the moment)


Isn't there retrieval degradation with such a large context size? I would still think that a RAG system on 128K is still better than No Rag + 1M context window, no? (assuming text only)


Absolutely. Gemini results tend to drop off after 128k tokens according to RULER: https://github.com/hsiehjackson/RULER


If I'm reading the paper right, it says Gemini 1.5 is good up to 128k, and RULER doesn't test beyond 128k


Hmm perhaps you are right.. There's no context on the page about what ">128k" means so possibly a bad assumption on my part!


Not sure why you've been downvoted. Needle in a haystack testing exists for a reason


You don't really use it, right? There's no way to debug if you're doing it like this. Also, the accuracy isn't high, and it can't answer complicated questions, making it quite useless for the cost.


Please make your substantive points without crossing into personal attack. Your comment would be fine without the first sentence.

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