Obviously the intent was "Thou shall not murder anyone"... Interpreting it otherwise doesn't make sense, and is inconsistent with the rest of the Bible.
That's the wrong way to look at it. The Bible does not refer to other laws as a source of authority. Saying murder is "just" illegal killing is the real meaningless statement. Clearly people in the Bible are allowed to fight and defend themselves. Murder is typically intentional and unnecessary killing of someone else for malicious reasons (or no reason at all). Malicious reasons would typically be spite, greed, or convenience.
> The Bible does not refer to other laws as a source of authority
The Bible is the source of law here. My point was that interpreting it solely in the way you deem "obvious" does not work: you cannot have "thou shalt not murder" on its own without additional rules clarifying what counts as "murder" and what counts as "lawful killing" - and the Bible contains plenty of those.
> Murder is typically intentional and unnecessary killing of someone else for malicious reasons (or no reason at all). Malicious reasons would typically be spite, greed, or convenience.
That's how you interpret it. Modern law allows for killing out of greed - if the soldier firing the bullet is different from the politician wanting to capture some resources. We allow countries to kill out of spite with retaliatory strikes. We allow cops to kill in self-defense - even when other methods to subdue are theoretically available, but inconvenient. On the other hand, we no longer allow stoning to death people violating the Sabbath.
Clearly, there is a nontrivial list of criteria separating murder from lawful killing, and this list is mutable. In practice this list is codified in the law, which means murder becomes "killing which is not otherwise allowed in the law", which is the point I was trying to make.
Looping back to the original discussion: contrary to what ikiris was originally claiming it is not "thou shalt not kill" but "thou shalt not murder", and we've been updating the definition of "murder" (and by extent the meaning of "thou shalt not murder") quite a lot over the last few thousand years, so it is false to claim that " 'thou shalt not kill' never needs an update ".
>The Bible is the source of law here. My point was that interpreting it solely in the way you deem "obvious" does not work: you cannot have "thou shalt not murder" on its own without additional rules clarifying what counts as "murder" and what counts as "lawful killing" - and the Bible contains plenty of those.
It is obvious to people who know the Bible lol. It may have lots of contradictions but this isn't one of them. Murder was understood in a particular way to these ancient people, that still applies to us today.
>That's how you interpret it. Modern law allows for killing out of greed - if the soldier firing the bullet is different from the politician wanting to capture some resources.
As I said, I am not referring to laws of any country. The laws of modern countries are irrelevant to interpretation of the Bible. The dictionary does not count either.
>Looping back to the original discussion: contrary to what ikiris was originally claiming it is not "thou shalt not kill" but "thou shalt not murder", and we've been updating the definition of "murder" (and by extent the meaning of "thou shalt not murder") quite a lot over the last few thousand years, so it is false to claim that " 'thou shalt not kill' never needs an update ".
The only thing that needs an update is the translation. The meaning is very clear and universal. Don't kill people except in self-defense. It is just as antisocial today as it was thousands of years ago.
"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
"and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.[a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy."
Lol yes... I've heard some alternative explanations of this. The Ten Commandments are not recognized outside of Christianity. They are just some important general sounding rules in a book that is full of rules for Jews, who get into battles with other people at times. Many of those rules in the same book have prescribed punishments of stoning to death, as well. So clearly, killing is at least allowed for purposes of punishment and warfare. Common sense also tells us that no religion can realistically prohibit self-defense.
"Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”"
Later on it says that he was not happy with the outcome because they didn't kill all the livestock and people... Of course this is a work of mythology, but the message clearly isn't that the Israelites should go and loot from these people.
